Tonight is the first Republican presidential debate, where eight candidates will square off in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Who has the most to gain and most to lose? And what topics will dominate the debate?
Former White House press secretary Sean Spicer, host of âThe Sean Spicer Show,â spoke to The Daily Signal about what heâll be watching and why his old bossâformer President Donald Trumpâopted to do an interview with former Fox News host Tucker Carlson instead.
Spicer launched his new show this week to coincide with the GOP debate. After publishing bestselling books and hosting âSpicer & Co.â on Newsmax, heâs now betting on independent media. Listen to the interview or read an edited transcript below.
Rob Bluey: Congratulations! I watched the first episode on YouTube and Iâm one of your early subscribers. I encourage our Daily Signal audience to do the same. Fantastic show.
I want to get into the details of your first showâwhat you heard on the ground there at the Iowa State Fairâbut first tell me why, after a successful run at Newsmax, you decided to launch an independent media brand?
Sean Spicer: This is the wave of the future, Rob. I enjoyed my time, but corporate media has a structure. âŚ
People always used to tell me they wanted me to do something on the show. And I said, âYes, itâs got my name on it,â it was called âSpicer & Co.,â but it wasnât my show. It was owned by the network. They could tell me what to cover, what not to cover, who to have, who not to have. And again, thatâs how it works. Iâm not complaining. Itâs just reality.
Going into this election cycle, where Iâve been at this for 30 years, being able to offer people insight into whatâs happening, why itâs happening, how we can do so many of the things you guys at Heritage talk about and protect and get those policies implemented, I thought it could be done through independent media a lot more effectively
Look at the wave of the futureâTucker Carlson, Tim Pool, Dave Rubin, Liz Wheeler, Dana Loeschâtheyâre all out there having conversations in a way that you canât necessarily have in a corporate structure.
And I looked at that and said, âI think this is where itâs going.â Youâve got 32% of Americans now that have a cable or a satellite subscription. Thatâs it. Itâs a dying medium. And my thought was, Iâd like to get ahead of the curve. And no better time than an election cycle. ⌠Iâve done two presidential cycles. I did my first campaign in the âContract with Americaâ in 1994. So I feel like I can explain this.
I yell at the TV when Iâm watching these cable pundits, âThatâs not how it works. That wonât work. Thatâs not effective. ⌠You canât execute what you just said in a realistic manner.â
So part of this was to be able to have a show where I can pull from that insight, bring in guests. For example, the day after the debate, weâve already lined up with three operatives that are part of campaigns.
You can have pundits all day long tell you what they think is going to happen. My thought was, why donât we get people who are actually going to execute on what happens in that debate and ask them, âHey, you had a viral moment last night. What does that mean for you? How much do you anticipate a bounce, etc., etc.?â
So I looked at it and said I had an opportunity to go out and do something that I thought was more effective.
Bluey: Who is your target audience?
Spicer: If you care about politics and elections and winning, then this is the show for you. Iâm not talking about existential stuff. This to me is, letâs get in the weeds. Letâs talk about the strategies the campaigns are using. Letâs talk about the debates. Letâs talk about the caucuses, the conventions, the primaries, the race for 270.
But I tell people all the time why they shouldnât pay attention to national polls. This electionâs coming down to eight states. Here they are. Hereâs whatâs being done to win them. Hereâs what we need to be on our lookout for.
But too often, Iâm throwing stuff at the television because the reporters that cover this, they really donât know what theyâre doing.
They know as much as I do about cardiothoracic surgery, which, aside from watching an episode of âER,â is not much.
So part of what I want to do is bring people the inside look at a campaign.
I ran the debate cycle for the [Republican National Committee] in 2015, the first time ever that a party ever actually controlled its primary process debates ever.
And you hear pundits now talk on television as if that was always the norm. It wasnât until we did that for the first time in the 2015 debate. No party, the RNC and the [Democratic National Committee], had ever controlled it.
So I can actually bring insight into what itâs like to run a debate that no one else that will be there today on television has done. No one. There is no one thatâs going to go on television, cable news or any other show, that can say, âThis is what it takes.â
I did all of them for the RNC and worked with every one of the networks to pull it off. I can tell you whatâs going on right now behind the scenes. And I look at that and say, âHey, letâs have that conversation, because no one else has.â And I think I can bring people a very unique perspective to the cycle from so many different angles.
>>> Sean Spicer Blasts Jen Psakiâs Farewell Publicity Tour: âThis Is So Unethical and Wrongâ
Like I said, I got friends of mine that can talk sports all day long, Rob. They can tell you batting averages, shot percentages, field goal percentages, whoâs up, whoâs down, trades.
Iâm a fair-weather fan. I love the Red Sox, the Patriots, whatever. But thatâs not my wheelhouse. Politics, government, thatâs what I know like the back of my hand and I felt like this was the right cycle to jump in and explain it to people.
And frankly, the best part is when I get feedback from people, and whether theyâre on my website or Locals, which is like conservative Substack, people will say, âI really want to hear more of this.â And itâs like, âGreat, letâs talk about it.â
When we do the show before the debate and then after the debate, itâll be based on questions that people think that theyâre interested in knowing, how things went down.
And I can give a perspective that I was the guy that coordinated with Donald Trump for all of his debates. ⌠I canât say I know everything thatâs going on in his thinking, because anyone who tells you thatâs a liar, but I can give you some sense of what itâs going to take for these candidates.
Bluey: It is fantastic to have your voice in the mix. We are thrilled that youâre doing this.
One of the things that I appreciate, at least in your early episodes, is youâre getting outside of Washington, youâre talking to real people, you are at the Iowa State Fair. So whatâs the buzz in Iowa? What are you hearing there in Wisconsin ahead of this debate? Whatâs on the minds of voters?
Spicer: Thereâs a big difference between the mind of the media and what they want and what the voters want.
And what I found both out in Iowa and out here in Milwaukee is that thereâs a high degree of interest, I think that thereâs no question that Trump is the 800-pound gorilla.
There are people willing to listen to another argument, but especially here in Milwaukee, ahead of the debate, I think that itâs fascinating. Trump is not going to physically be here, but his presence is everywhere. Thatâs all everyoneâs talking about. What impact does he have? How are the candidates going to address or not?
Trump, tomorrow night, especially heading into this Fulton County DA issue, thereâs going to be a lot of questions about how every one of these candidates positions themselves vis-a-vis Trump and an attempt to grow voters.
⌠And same thing when I was at the State Fair. I talked to a lot of the Iowa elected officials, I talked to a lot of the fairgoers, trying to get their perspective because itâs amazing, when you actually get outside the Beltway, as you put it, and talk to people about what you think theyâre supposed to be saying. Because you listen to some of the pundits and read, you know, Politico and The New York Times, itâs amazing what the reality is versus what they tell you it is.
Bluey: You posed a question to your subscribers about who would get more views, the Fox debate or Donald Trumpâs interview with Tucker Carlson. I couldnât help but notice 80% of your respondents said that Trump would dominate on Wednesday night.
So whatâs going into his thinking? As you mentioned, you worked closely with him, not only in the White House but before he was elected president. Why did he decide to opt out of this debate and do this alternative programming?
Spicer: First, I will say this, I think itâs not just the first debate. I think thereâs no question the second debate on Sept. 27 at the Reagan Library, heâs out of that one as well. Whether he keeps going, weâll see. But I think itâs plain and simple.
Again, this gets back to what I was just saying a minute ago, Rob. The media wants him there because they want to see a fight. They want ratings.
The reality is, Donald Trump on the low end is about 50% in national polls for the primary and as high as closer to 60%. And then in the early statesâwhich really matters, because at the end of the day, this is a delegate raceâNevada or South Carolina, Trump is anywhere from the mid- to high 40s to well over 50%.
>>> Trump Takes 47-Point Lead Over Republican Field as Ramaswamy Surges to Second
A lot of the candidates that are going to be on the stage [Wednesday] night, letâs be honest, have to wear a name tag because no one knows who the heck they are. And from a Trump standpoint, if you think about this in like a boxing mentality, [he] is the champ. The heavyweight title going to fight the guy that just got into the ring? No, heâs going to wait until he moves himself up.
Trump will have to debate at some point down the road. But right now, sitting on a stage with eight other people that have to wear name tags for you to know who they are because they barely qualify. Strategically speaking, take Trump out of this. Anybody that did that, I would have advised them against it. And so thatâs No. 1.
No. 2, I think thereâs a little bit of a of a counterprogramming piece to this, which is he wants to needle Fox News a little bit, take Tucker, do an event that kind of just shows them, hey, you canât do this without me.
And I do think that the media is going to try to underplay how Trump does on Twitter and say, âOh, you canât count the same.â But letâs be honest. And this, again, is where I can bring the expertise into this. âŚ
Rating networks or cable networks, they use Nielsen. Nielsen says we put a box in a house and then say that every person who has a box and is on a station, that counts for 25,000 other people. Thatâs a guess.
So them trying to claim that they have some proven scientific method is ridiculous. Theyâre going to try to claim that whatever Trumpâs number is on Twitter with Tucker isnât the equivalent. And while that may be somewhat true, the reality is that I think he will far outdo the overall eyeballs. Itâs probably a better way of putting it than the Fox debate.
Bluey: As an astute political observer, what are the things that they should be watching? You mentioned the eight candidates. Obviously, there are a few that are household names at this point among Republicans. There are a few that are looking to really make their moment. What should we be paying attention to?
Spicer: I think the strategy is going to be the key thing. Do they come out, if youâre at 1% and 2% and 3%, are you coming out of the gate trying to increase your name ID and have people come away with a positive sense of who you are?
Let me give you the example. I think Chris Christie has made it very clear heâs got the kamikaze mission going where heâs just going to come in and go at Trump.
Hereâs my take on this, strategically speaking. If Christie comes in, and letâs just say for hypothetical purposes, that heâs the most effective takedown of Donald Trump ever in the world. He takes down Trump. There is no guarantee that heâs the beneficiary of that.
So everybody says, âHey, I agree with you, Chris Christie. Donald Trump is a horrible candidate. Iâll never vote for him.â So youâve made the case. That doesnât mean that theyâre going to vote for Chris Christie. Thereâs seven other people on that stage that could go down for him.
So I would argue to a candidate, even if you come out swinging against Trump, has that benefited you? No. 1.
No. 2, conversely, if you come out and make the case for yourself, and youâre at 2%, and a bunch of people say, âI like you,â and you double that from 2% to 4%, youâve probably guaranteed youâbecause if you make the case about you, your accomplishments, your vision for the future, your policy, and people agree with you, then they are going to benefit, it will benefit you.
So I would argue, strategically speaking, it benefits Trump a lot more than it benefits, it helps them much more than it does going after Trump.
And so, again, weâll see. ⌠The media has tried to sell a lot of these people that the answer is to really go after Trump. And I think thatâs because thatâs who they want.
Bluey: With that being said, which candidates have the most to gain and who has the most to lose coming out of this Wednesday night?
Spicer: Great question. Let me put it into three tiers.
No. 1, I think [Florida Gov.] Ron DeSantis has the most to lose. He has an opportunity to come out and reassure donors in particularâbecause thatâs really what this is about for himâthat heâs got their message, heâs going to refocus, etc. So thatâs No. 1.
No. 2 is, I think [Vivek] Ramaswamy is the guy that I want to keep an eye on right now, tomorrow night to see. He is focused on a very positive message of vision for the country thatâs devoid of attacking Donald Trump.
And then I think the third category is who else? Somebody else, one of those other sects, is going to have a moment. Nikki Haley is someone I would keep an eye on in particular or [Sen.] Tim Scott.
And again, the key thing to keep in mind is that when youâre at 4%, if you double yourself, if you get twice as much support, youâre only at six. But I think these guys realize itâs baby steps to 10% or 15%.
So I think those are the three categories that I look at. Does DeSantis hold his own or reassure donors that theyâre concerned about him? No. 2, does Ramaswamy continue that upward climb that heâs had? And three is, who is that other person that I think people may not have given a big look at?
Because remember, for a lot of these folks, this is the first time theyâre going to be in an audience of millions of people. You go on a Sunday show, thatâs great. This is, my guess is that youâre looking at anywhere from 12 to 15 million people that watch this debate.
Bluey: In terms of the topics that we can expect the moderators, Bret Baier and Martha MacCallum, to ask about, is it going to be focused on Trumpâs indictment? Is it going to be focused on Joe Biden? Or will it be a discussion of the policy debates that are taking place in the conservative movement right now?
Spicer: The first two are definite. Bret Baier and Martha have given some interviews where theyâve said theyâre going to do this. I think that the bigger question that I find is how much? Is it one or two questions or is it 10? How much time does get spent on Biden? But I think both of those categories will be covered.
And then, this is where I think you put your finger on this, do they ask questions that grassroots conservatives care about, movement conservatives, as [Heritage Foundation President] Kevin Roberts likes to talk about?
And thatâs what Iâm intrigued by because I think for a lot of folks in the media, they want to talk about Donald Trump and abortion. And I donât know that thereâs a single candidate on the stage tomorrow night that isnât pro-life. So there are some nuances in terms of a federal law and a six-week ban or whatever, but that shouldnât be a 20-minute discussion point.
>>> Sean Spicerâs Road Map for Stopping Bidenâs Radical Plan to Change Our Nation
So I think how much conservative issues, how much do we talk about China, the buildup of the border, immigration, things that I think movement conservatives really care about right now will be important, protecting our vote, things that people actually care about that are differentiators, right?
And I think that thatâs the key thing, is that thereâs a bunch of issues. Like I said, I think for abortion and life issues, almost everyone, I donât think thereâs a single candidate on the stage tomorrow nightâI mean, Christieâs obviously probably on the more moderate end of that scale, but I think every one of the candidates would at least say that they are a defender of life and a protector of life.
I think itâll be interesting to see what that balance is that shakes out among the questions that the moderators ask.
And frankly, the bigger point that I think youâre getting at is beyond tomorrow nightâs debate, where else does this go? I am very concerned about who some of the hosts could be for these debates and some of the moderators.
I think thatâs why the RNC went with Fox Business for the second one, because theyâre going to run out of Foxes. I mean, I donât know, maybe they go to Fox Nation next, but I think thereâs only so many Foxes that you can hit before the CNN.
I mean, the only people they really interviewed were Fox, CNN, MSNBC, ABC. I would have liked to have seen independent media play a much bigger role in the cycle.
Bluey: âThe Sean Spicer Showâ is available on YouTube, Rumble, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. Give us a preview about some of the things that are coming up in the days ahead.
Spicer: Tonight, weâre obviously going to be at the debate. Weâre going to cover, weâre going to talk to Jason Miller from the Trump campaign about what Trumpâs strategy is. Theyâre not allowing his surrogates in the spin room. What are they going to do to get ⌠their word out? So we will look at it from that perspective.
Weâve got a bunch of the super PAC representatives on the day after the debate where we are going to break down their strategy. What did they see at the debate? What are they going to do about it with all this money that theyâre bringing in to benefit their candidate?
As we go forward, obviously, this Fulton County indictment against Trump. What does it mean for his legal case? Weâve got some top lawyers that weâre already looking at to get on to explain the legal case and the political ramifications. âŚ
You asked earlier, what are we trying to do? Iâm trying to give people an understanding of whatâs going to happen down the pike, how we can stop it, how we can have our voices heard, but also, like, how we can effectively be part of the process.
Because I think too often I see someone, itâs almost like watching someone flail in a pool where itâs like, OK, youâre making motions but youâre not actually swimming. And part of what we want to do is help people navigate the waters here.
Bluey: Finally, whatâs the best way for our audience to follow you, follow the show, other things that you have going on in your world?
Spicer: If youâre just interested in the show, go to SeanSpicerShow.com, that has all the links.
So if youâre a Spotify person or a podcastâand just as a selfish plug, the more places you subscribe, itâs super helpful. I mean, thatâs where I think the independent mediaâso if you are a podcast person, please go to Apple Podcasts, and then if you can go to YouTube and subscribe to the channel, as you mentioned, you get to see the audio version.
Weâre on a channel called The First, which, if you have DirecTV, is 347, weâre with [Bill] OâReilly, Jesse Kelly, Dana Loesch. And so all, just subscribing is super helpful.
Bluey: Best wishes. We hope to have you back again soon. Again, itâs âThe Sean Spicer Show.â Make sure you subscribe. Thank you, Sean.
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